Афганская война . Дезертиры ?

[Славян]

Как я понял из подписи , на фото два дезертира из Советской армии , Николай Васильевич Балабанов и Гарик Морадович Джамалбеков .

Как оно на самом деле я не знаю .

Так же подкинули тут вот такую информацию :

БАЛАБАНОВ Виктор Александрович, рядовой, 1965-4.02.85, Нимруз - это единственный Балабанов, пропавший без вести в Афганистане.

А Джамалбековых вообще в списке нет .

 

Само фото из американского журнала "National Geographic" 85 года .

 

К фото прилагалась статья Дебры Денкер с той знаменитой фотографией девочки, которая на обложку попала. :

 

QUOTE

"In a mujahidin training camp near the border I meet two Soviet defectors. Like most of their mujahidin counterparts, Garik Moradovich Dzhamalbekov and Nikolai Vasilovich Balabanov are young, in their early- to mid-20s. I do not at first recognize them as Russians, as they wear Afghan dress. A mujahidin commander orders them to come closer. I look into their wary faces and sense that they do not want this interview; they have seen too many journalists. They speak Persian but tell me they prefer to speak Russian through a mujahidin interpreter. Both men were born in Soviet Central Asia. Garik, a light-complexioned, bearded man, is a Tajik from Dushanbe, the capital of the Tajik Soviet Socialist Republic; broad-featured Nikolai, half Kazakh and half Russian, is from Alma Ata, capital of the Kazakh S.S.R. Eyes downcast, they chain-smoke as they narrate their story. “They said we would fight Americans, Chinese, and Pakistanis,” says Nikolai. After some months they began supplying weapons to the mujahidin, because it was “a bad war, a dirty war,” according to Garik. They were caught and jailed, but escaped and deserted to the mujahidin. Under some willow trees by a stream, former enemies sit side by side with me, sharing an incongruous picnic lunch of unleavened bread and a tomato omelet. The two defectors, who speak to me in Persian when we are left alone, have heard that several Soviet soldiers have gone to England and the United States, and they are hoping Canada or the United States will accept them. They have made a cruel and difficult choice, from which there is no turning back. “We were happy as children,” Garik says, “but then we grew up.”"

 

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/100b...oryA_story.html

 

Граждане помогите с не техническим переводом с английского , это я обращаюсь к тем у кого английский разговорный .

Онлайн переводчиками я уже перевёл .

 

Ну и может у кого нибудь ещё есть чего добавить .

[viza68]

Всяко было - это жизнь. Кто в бою попадал в плен, кто по дурости. По политическим мотивам, наврятли. В то время,в таком возрасте,в Советской армии на политзанятиях солдаты старались заниматься всем чем угодно, но не политикой.

[Славян]

Вот примерный перевод статьи :

QUOTE

В подписи сказано, что они помогали афганским повстанцам оружием, когда начали сомневаться в справедливости войны. Один из них назвал войну "плохой, грязной войной". Далее, текстом: В тренировочном лагере моджахедов рядом с границей (оч. пакистанской?) я встретил двух советских дезертиров. Так же как и их новые товарищи, они молоды - не старше 25. Я не сразу распознал в них русских, так как они были в национальной одежде. Командир повстанцев приказал им подойти поближе. Посмотрев в их усталые лица, я понял, что они не горели желанием давать интервью. Они видели слишком много журналистов. Они владели фарси, но сказали, что им удобнее говорить по-русски через афганского переводчика. Оба уроженцы советской Средней Азии, Гарик - хилого телосложения, с бородой, таджик из Душанбе, столицы Тадж.ССР. Николай, ширококостный, наполовину - казах, наполовину - русский из Алма-Аты, столицы советского Казахстана. Они прячут глаза и непрерывно курят, рассказывая свою историю. "Нам сказали, мы будем воевать с американцами, китайцами и пакистанцами", - говорит Николай. Через несколько месяцев они стали снабжать оружием моджахедов, потому что, как говорит Гарик, это - "плохая, грязная война". Их поймали и взяли под стражу, но они бежали и перешли к моджахедам. Под ивами, рядом с ручьем бывшие враги сидят бок о бок со мной, деля не очень подходящий обед на открытом воздухе из бездрожжевого хлеба и яичницы с помидорами. Два советских перебежчика, когда мы остаемся одни, говорят мне на фарси, что слышали, якобы некоторые советские солдаты попадали в Англию или США. Они надеются, что США или Канада приютят и их. Они сделали жесткий и трудный выбор, после которого нет возврата. "Мы были счастливы, как дети, - говорит Гарик, - но потом мы выросли."

 

За перевод , БОЛЬШОЕ ЧЕЛОВЕЧЕСКОЕ СПАСИБО НАТАЛЬЕ ФИЛИППОВОЙ !

[viza68]

QUOTE (Славян @ Sep 8 2009, 11:32 PM)

Вот примерный перевод статьи : QUOTE В подписи сказано, что они помогали афганским повстанцам оружием, когда начали сомневаться в справедливости войны. Один из них назвал войну "плохой, грязной войной". Далее, текстом: В тренировочном лагере моджахедов рядом с границей (оч. пакистанской?) я встретил двух советских дезертиров. Так же как и их новые товарищи, они молоды - не старше 25. Я не сразу распознал в них русских, так как они были в национальной одежде. Командир повстанцев приказал им подойти поближе. Посмотрев в их усталые лица, я понял, что они не горели желанием давать интервью. Они видели слишком много журналистов. Они владели фарси, но сказали, что им удобнее говорить по-русски через афганского переводчика. Оба уроженцы советской Средней Азии, Гарик - хилого телосложения, с бородой, таджик из Душанбе, столицы Тадж.ССР. Николай, ширококостный, наполовину - казах, наполовину - русский из Алма-Аты, столицы советского Казахстана. Они прячут глаза и непрерывно курят, рассказывая свою историю. "Нам сказали, мы будем воевать с американцами, китайцами и пакистанцами", - говорит Николай. Через несколько месяцев они стали снабжать оружием моджахедов, потому что, как говорит Гарик, это - "плохая, грязная война". Их поймали и взяли под стражу, но они бежали и перешли к моджахедам. Под ивами, рядом с ручьем бывшие враги сидят бок о бок со мной, деля не очень подходящий обед на открытом воздухе из бездрожжевого хлеба и яичницы с помидорами. Два советских перебежчика, когда мы остаемся одни, говорят мне на фарси, что слышали, якобы некоторые советские солдаты попадали в Англию или США. Они надеются, что США или Канада приютят и их. Они сделали жесткий и трудный выбор, после которого нет возврата. "Мы были счастливы, как дети, - говорит Гарик, - но потом мы выросли."   За перевод , БОЛЬШОЕ ЧЕЛОВЕЧЕСКОЕ СПАСИБО НАТАЛЬЕ ФИЛИППОВОЙ ! Западная пропаганда. Вы сами-то этому тексту верите? Сейчас то-же самое можно сказать и про пиндосов.

[Карацуповец]

Пройдёт ещё лет 10 и эту байду вновь испечённые "историки" будут толкать как вновь открывшийся факт развала Советской армии в период войны в Афганистане.

Уж очень у нас,а особенно в странах СНГ стали любить "жареные факты" от пиндосов и т.п. корреспондентов. Хотя и СССР в своё время так же старался...

[Славян]

QUOTE (viza68 @ Sep 9 2009, 02:50 AM)

Западная пропаганда. Вы сами-то этому тексту верите? Сейчас то-же самое можно сказать и про пиндосов.

Ни кто не спорит , в тексте много пропаганды , оно и в названии темы у меня знак вопроса .

Я в самом начале уже написал , что нет информации как оно на самом деле всё было .

 

 

Теперь по существу вопроса :

 

Подкинули мне тут ещё одну статью где фигурируют эти двое .

 

QUOTE

Afghan guerrillas may turn Soviet deserters into a fighting force . Peshawar, Pakistan—Afghan resistance fighters are considering a new tactic in their war against the Soviets. They are listening with increasing interest to outside sympathizers who suggest an alternative way of handling Soviet soldiers held by the Afghan mujahideen (Muslim guerrillas). This approach would alleviate both the difficult conditions of the Soviets' captivity and the burden they impose on the Afghans. These sympathizers are encouraging the Afghans to establish a separate all-Soviet fighting unit that would attract discontented Soviets who do not go over to the guerrillas for fear of being killed. Russians and other non-Central Asian nationalities are also reluctant to convert to Islam and adopt Afghan culture, which are in effect required. There would be more motivation, the idea goes, to fight alongside their own countrymen. According to Soviet deserter Vladislov Naumov, widespread sentiment exists in the Soviet forces to support this idea. He has told of much-discussed rumors of a free Russian regiment operating in Afghanistan against the Red Army. Some soldiers have even left the Army to try to find it. The reasons Soviet soldiers choose to desert were made clear when this reporter interviewed four Soviet prisoners this spring outside Peshawar, Pakistan, where they were being secretly held. The Soviets' policy in Afghanistan is one of ''total terror,'' said the soldiers, who were all in their early 20s. ''We were ordered by our officers that when we attack a village, not one person must be left alive to tell the tale. If we refuse to carry out these orders, we get it in the neck ourselves,'' said Oleg Khlan, a Ukrainian. The theory, he explained, is that killing only a few people creates a strong desire for revenge in the survivors. If large numbers are killed, the remainder will be terrorized into submission. Igor Dzhamalbekov, also from the Ukraine, related an example of this policy. At his major's birthday celebration, news came that the major's younger brother, a lieutenant, and six soldiers had been killed by Afghan villagers from whom they had tried to steal apples for the party. The enraged major ordered three regiments to destroy every living thing in Kholm, a town of 3,000 in the north of Afghanistan. All four prisoners expressed disillusionment with Soviet Army activities in Afghanistan. They had had little idea before arriving what they would encounter. ''We knew, of course, that we were fighting the Americans and Chinese there, but that was really all,'' said Igor Rykov, a White Russian sergeant. ''We knew our country was helping out the Afghan people, but we know what kind of help we give anyway,'' he said with a wry smile. After training for four to six weeks, they arrived in Afghanistan. Once they saw that the only foreign troops in the country were their own - and that they were fighting the Afghan people, most of whom are involved in the resistance - they began to have doubts, they said. Like many other Soviet deserters, the four men left the Red Army because of harsh treatment from their officers. All described regular beatings by sergeants. ''It was a way of proving their superiority,'' said Dzhamalbekov. ''We couldn't touch them. The officers picked on them and they picked on us in a hierarchy of beatings.'' After repeated beatings, Rykov finally struck an officer back and was imprisoned. Together with Khlan, he escaped. They broke into the armory, and when they gave themselves up to the Afghan guerrillas, they carried a supply of rifles. All the prisoners complained of the arduous physical conditions of Soviet Army life in Afghanistan. For pay of 9 rubles ($11.25) a month they endured the harsh climate, relatively primitive conditions, and frequent disease. The rations they were given read, ''To be eaten by 1965.'' As Muslim converts, the Soviet prisoners pray five times a day under the watchful eyes of their Afghan guards. All expressed eagerness to go to the West. Rykov and Khlan have left for Britain, and Dzhamalbekov and Nikolai Balabanov, the fourth Soviet deserter interviewed, are hoping to receive political asylum in the United States soon. (On Wednesday, two Soviet soldiers captured by Afghan rebels and held in Switzerland for two years were returned to the Soviet Union. Under an accord between the Soviets and Afghan guerrillas, Soviet soldiers held by Afghan rebels stay in Switzerland for two years or until the end of ''hostilities'' in Afghanistan. (The first three Soviets freed under the agreement were released in May, and two decided not to return to the Soviet Union.) The chances of obtaining political asylum in the West are slight for many of the other estimated 200 prisoners held by the resistance fighters. Some, particularly Central Asians, have joined forces with the guerrillas. Taj Muhammad, a Kazakh, commands a band of 50 fighters in Kunduz in north-central Afghanistan. He is married to a mullah's daughter and has reportedly shot down two helicopter gunships. Soviet troops entered Afghanistan in late 1979 to shore up an Afghan Communist regime faltering under widespread guerrilla opposition. There has been a marked escalation in the Soviet military effort this year. According to Western military sources, the Soviet occupation force has been increased to 120, 000. Soviet soldiers reportedly are more active in combat. However, the mujahideen appear to be holding their own. By Christina Dameyer, Special to The Christian Science Monitor . 10.08.1984. http://www.csmonitor.com/1984/0810/081046.html

 

И так-же есть информация насчёт того что когда-то Артём Боровик , в программе Совершенно Секретно , брал интервью у Николая Балабанова . Он при помощи Канадского Красного Креста перебрался в Канаду.

[mays2008]

В любой армии дезертиры были, есть и будут. Нет армии - нет и дезертиров.

Кроме братской помощи афганскому народу было еще и противостояние двух систем. Нам, т.е. СССР выгодно было не иметь дезертиров, западу - наоборот, показать, как бегут наши солдаты.

Очень сомневаюсь, что в открытых источниках есть по этому поводу информация.

 

Да и США вроде тоже в Афганистане особых успехов не достигла.

[Константин]

И не достигнет... Их просто будут методично валить.

[Карацуповец]

QUOTE (Константин @ Sep 9 2009, 06:30 PM)

И не достигнет... Их просто будут методично валить.

100% ! Так же как и всех.кто после них туда прийдёт. Менталитет у афганцев такой.

[Карацуповец]

QUOTE (Славян @ Sep 9 2009, 06:03 PM)

QUOTE (viza68 @ Sep 9 2009, 02:50 AM) Западная пропаганда. Вы сами-то этому тексту верите? Сейчас то-же самое можно сказать и про пиндосов. Ни кто не спорит , в тексте много пропаганды , оно и в названии темы у меня знак вопроса . Я в самом начале уже написал , что нет информации как оно на самом деле всё было .     Теперь по существу вопроса :   Подкинули мне тут ещё одну статью где фигурируют эти двое .   QUOTE Afghan guerrillas may turn Soviet deserters into a fighting force . Peshawar, Pakistan—Afghan resistance fighters are considering a new tactic in their war against the Soviets. They are listening with increasing interest to outside sympathizers who suggest an alternative way of handling Soviet soldiers held by the Afghan mujahideen (Muslim guerrillas). This approach would alleviate both the difficult conditions of the Soviets' captivity and the burden they impose on the Afghans. These sympathizers are encouraging the Afghans to establish a separate all-Soviet fighting unit that would attract discontented Soviets who do not go over to the guerrillas for fear of being killed. Russians and other non-Central Asian nationalities are also reluctant to convert to Islam and adopt Afghan culture, which are in effect required. There would be more motivation, the idea goes, to fight alongside their own countrymen. According to Soviet deserter Vladislov Naumov, widespread sentiment exists in the Soviet forces to support this idea. He has told of much-discussed rumors of a free Russian regiment operating in Afghanistan against the Red Army. Some soldiers have even left the Army to try to find it. The reasons Soviet soldiers choose to desert were made clear when this reporter interviewed four Soviet prisoners this spring outside Peshawar, Pakistan, where they were being secretly held. The Soviets' policy in Afghanistan is one of ''total terror,'' said the soldiers, who were all in their early 20s. ''We were ordered by our officers that when we attack a village, not one person must be left alive to tell the tale. If we refuse to carry out these orders, we get it in the neck ourselves,'' said Oleg Khlan, a Ukrainian. The theory, he explained, is that killing only a few people creates a strong desire for revenge in the survivors. If large numbers are killed, the remainder will be terrorized into submission. Igor Dzhamalbekov, also from the Ukraine, related an example of this policy. At his major's birthday celebration, news came that the major's younger brother, a lieutenant, and six soldiers had been killed by Afghan villagers from whom they had tried to steal apples for the party. The enraged major ordered three regiments to destroy every living thing in Kholm, a town of 3,000 in the north of Afghanistan. All four prisoners expressed disillusionment with Soviet Army activities in Afghanistan. They had had little idea before arriving what they would encounter. ''We knew, of course, that we were fighting the Americans and Chinese there, but that was really all,'' said Igor Rykov, a White Russian sergeant. ''We knew our country was helping out the Afghan people, but we know what kind of help we give anyway,'' he said with a wry smile. After training for four to six weeks, they arrived in Afghanistan. Once they saw that the only foreign troops in the country were their own - and that they were fighting the Afghan people, most of whom are involved in the resistance - they began to have doubts, they said. Like many other Soviet deserters, the four men left the Red Army because of harsh treatment from their officers. All described regular beatings by sergeants. ''It was a way of proving their superiority,'' said Dzhamalbekov. ''We couldn't touch them. The officers picked on them and they picked on us in a hierarchy of beatings.'' After repeated beatings, Rykov finally struck an officer back and was imprisoned. Together with Khlan, he escaped. They broke into the armory, and when they gave themselves up to the Afghan guerrillas, they carried a supply of rifles. All the prisoners complained of the arduous physical conditions of Soviet Army life in Afghanistan. For pay of 9 rubles ($11.25) a month they endured the harsh climate, relatively primitive conditions, and frequent disease. The rations they were given read, ''To be eaten by 1965.'' As Muslim converts, the Soviet prisoners pray five times a day under the watchful eyes of their Afghan guards. All expressed eagerness to go to the West. Rykov and Khlan have left for Britain, and Dzhamalbekov and Nikolai Balabanov, the fourth Soviet deserter interviewed, are hoping to receive political asylum in the United States soon. (On Wednesday, two Soviet soldiers captured by Afghan rebels and held in Switzerland for two years were returned to the Soviet Union. Under an accord between the Soviets and Afghan guerrillas, Soviet soldiers held by Afghan rebels stay in Switzerland for two years or until the end of ''hostilities'' in Afghanistan. (The first three Soviets freed under the agreement were released in May, and two decided not to return to the Soviet Union.) The chances of obtaining political asylum in the West are slight for many of the other estimated 200 prisoners held by the resistance fighters. Some, particularly Central Asians, have joined forces with the guerrillas. Taj Muhammad, a Kazakh, commands a band of 50 fighters in Kunduz in north-central Afghanistan. He is married to a mullah's daughter and has reportedly shot down two helicopter gunships. Soviet troops entered Afghanistan in late 1979 to shore up an Afghan Communist regime faltering under widespread guerrilla opposition. There has been a marked escalation in the Soviet military effort this year. According to Western military sources, the Soviet occupation force has been increased to 120, 000. Soviet soldiers reportedly are more active in combat. However, the mujahideen appear to be holding their own. By Christina Dameyer, Special to The Christian Science Monitor . 10.08.1984. http://www.csmonitor.com/1984/0810/081046.html   И так-же есть информация насчёт того что когда-то Артём Боровик , в программе Совершенно Секретно , брал интервью у Николая Балабанова . Он при помощи Канадского Красного Креста перебрался в Канаду. Аушевский Комитет воинов-интернационалистов СНГ вплотную занимается пропавшими без вести, пленными и т.д. Может у них на сайте по этому вопросу что-то есть ? Думаю,информация-то точно есть.